Start The Conversation Episode 11 Transcript

11 - Before an Attack: Spotting the Signs with Ian Cherrington

Ian What is it about these people that makes them different to other people that we might be concerned about. What kind of behaviours or indicators do they actually show outwardly as they prepare for violence. There's almost always some kind of mental and physical preparation. It's easy to go online and find the support services…be tuned into the possibility. I think it's a really difficult, for anyone, this would be most people's worst nightmare to be in this situation...to have to do this, but…the alternative could be significantly worse.

Simon The violent extremism landscape is fluid and complex, and it can be difficult to navigate. This podcast series has been developed as a means of providing listeners with some thought-provoking topics within this context, personal insights and journeys, as well as helpful information that could assist someone who is vulnerable to being involved in violent extremist. The engagement and support unit services focus on early intervention, awareness, and resilience against violent extremists. They consult with and support the local community with this information to help mitigate the drivers of violent extremism and raise awareness of the complex factors and vulnerabilities that contribute to these ideologies. Before we begin, we would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands and airways on which we are meeting and broadcasting today. As we share our learning, we also pay respects to elders past and present. It is their knowledge and experiences that hold the key to the success of our future generations and promote our connection to country and community. Please note that views expressed are not necessarily representative of the New South Wales government. Episodes may contain depictions of violence or sensitive topics that some people may find distressing. For further information, please view our episode notes.

Heather Hello, I'm Heather Jackson, Director of the New South Wales Countering Violent Extremism Engagement Support Unit.

Rebecca I'm Rebecca Shaw, Communications and Community Engagement Manager. And this is Start the Conversation. Ian Cherrington is a former senior detective from the UK with an academic background in forensic psychology. Prior to being a police officer, he was a senior behavioural analyst for a national police agency responsible for linking serial murder cases. He was later a manager in Prevent, which is the UK version of Step Together, supporting vulnerable people and children who had been drawn into extremism. He then worked as a senior investigating officer, investigating potential terrorists and terrorist attacks. He was also the national lead for terrorist behaviour and examined lone-actor attacks from across the world to better understand what you might see as someone prepares for an act of violence. Now based in Australia as an independent consultant on threat assessment, he is on a mission to improve public safety from a growing trend that sees an evolution towards mass attacks without a clear ideology. He believes that the behaviours people display before they carry an attack are often identifiable and that the responsibility is on professionals, families, friends and wider public to flag their concerns before it is too late. Ian believes if we can stop even one attack before it happens, we can reduce the devastation caused to families and communities of potential victims in the future. Ian, it is so great to have you here chatting with us today and the extensive Countering Violent Extremism knowledge that you bring to the table. When we speak of prevention and reducing devastation caused to families and the broader community and your previous experience for Prevent in the UK, I can't help but think of the recent inquest into the Southport UK attack. And the statements from the families of those poor little girls who were the victims. They expressed regret over the failures to prevent the horrific attack if just one person had acted properly. And they highlight that the killer's parents neglectful of their duties and of a system that ignored early warning signs. There is obviously the ethical consideration of responsibility of parents to society as well as to their children. I don't know if we'll delve into that today, but this idea of early warning signs being missed and parents not reporting. Despite considerable behavioural changes in the lead up for fear of their child getting into trouble, very much issues that are relevant here in Australia. They are major barriers to early intervention. So obviously Step Together is here to support individuals and communities in speaking up early and safely when they notice concerning behaviour. With your international experience from both operational policing and behavioural science, can you shed a little light on what that journey to violence looks like? You know, what people do when they decide to carry out an attack. And what those close to them might see.

Ian Yeah sure, so first of all just to say thanks Rebecca and Heather for inviting me to talk about what I think is an important issue. In reality these events are rare, so what we're talking about here is people that have either carried out violence or an attack or have got very close to it and so in my previous roles I spent time looking at cases internationally in great detail to try and work out. A, what is it about these people that makes them different to other people that we might be concerned about? But also, what kind of behaviours or indicators do they actually show outwardly as they prepare for violence? There are an exception to every rule. So, but what I would say about these kinds of things is that they're rarely spontaneous. There's almost always some kind of mental and physical preparation. So have that in mind while I talk, but the first thing to consider in terms of what you might see on the pathway to violence is almost all cases have some kind of grievance attached to them. So I use the word grievance because not all of these attacks are terrorism and extremism, but obviously lots are. But with grievance, what we're talking about is a very kind of personal anger and issue with some particular person group of people or sometimes the state itself or an institution and it kind of comes in two ways. One is a personal grievance, so it's very personal to that individual and they are concerned about that. But it also might be that they are concerned for another group, so this is where you see people that effectively carry out violence on behalf of other groups, not necessarily on instruction but they be inspired to. So grievance is expressed outwardly often. And the level of anger that you see is very likely to be seen in ways that when they speak about these particular issues to others, including families. So grievance is almost always there. The second area which I wanna talk about, which you might see on the way to violence is what I would describe as a tipping point. So this is also known as being in a position of nothing to lose. You can break that further really down to two types. One is an internal tipping point, so that might be a significant event that's occurred in their life, like a end of a relationship, a death, loss of job, loss of status, immigration status, and even we've had examples of cases where the attacker is terminally ill. So it's very much about they've reached a point where there's nothing really to lose. And actually, just as an aside, if you consider acts of martyrdom in Islamist cases, there's actually something to gain there too, as this idea of carrying out an attack might lead to someone going to heaven as a result of the attack. So that's the kind of internal tipping points you have. An external tipping point, which I would call like a flashpoint, I suppose, is something that they have been kind of tipped into acting because of their concern. So the obvious one is things that play out on the TV in wars or other events around the world and that might be what tips them into deciding to take action and actually real world action. The other kind of example that would fit with that is if they're challenged by either the person or group that they have the grievance with in the first place or they may be challenged by authority or law enforcement something like that so that's what you see. And often in those situations, it's a case of the anger is built so much that that external kind of flash point, if you like, has pushed them over the edge and that's when you see people moving towards an attack. So with all these things I've mentioned, when we talk about family and friends and what might be seen or other agencies, these kinds of levels of attachment to their grievance, their anger. Are things that you're likely to see. But in terms of tipping points, even just knowing that they've had a significant life event or knowing that there has been a major incident or there's some reaction that they've shown towards a major event around the world is enough from my point of view that you should be concerned and at very least checking in with that person. So that's just remembering to think about that. The second part of someone's journey towards violence is really preparing for the attack itself, the violence itself. So that can be broken down in two parts. One is physical preparation. So in simple terms, they've decided to carry out an attack. They're going to choose where they're going to do it, they're gonna think about the kinds of weapons that they might use, how they're doing to do, what time, what day, all those kinds of things. And some of that is prepared privately. In lots of cases you see either a run through of events or you see some kind of what we describe as reconnaissance and that might be online or in person. And families, friends, people close to them may start to pick up then on some secretive kind of behaviour, acting suspicious or withdrawn. That kind of fits with that idea. The second part preparation is mental preparation. So, and this is the bit that people sometimes miss, which is that to do this is such a significant step. They're gonna take people's lives. That's their plan, whether they're successful or not. And the end result for them is either sometimes they die themselves or they end up in prison. So these are significant things psychologically to think about. And because of that, what happens is you get people behave in sometimes erratic ways as it gets closer to taking this decision. And they start to act out and also, they may suddenly change in terms of previously they were very upset about their grievance and then suddenly they're no longer talking about it at all. So it's really important to think about the sudden change in someone's behaviour, even if it looks positive. And the last thing I wanna talk about is leakage. So this is an academic term you may have heard of before. Leakage is really someone giving some indication of what they're going to do. Very rarely do they say exactly what they are going to, but they might just make a comment which makes people wonder. They might say they want to take action, which is more obvious. They might not say when. But they also might say goodbye to people, or they might sort of say things that sound like they're leaving, you know, that kind of thing. And that's really based on what I've described. And what leakage is really about is about this idea for many of them is about being remembered, so having some recognition or notoriety after they've done it. So if someone talks about wanting to be remembered, then these are things of great concern. So I know I've run through a lot there, but hopefully that makes sense.

Heather Are those steps sequential Ian, you sort of run through those stages do you find that they're sequential in their approach? If we're looking at a particular client and we're finding some of those aspects, would you find them more sequential or they could be randomised a bit more?

Ian I think the first part of it, which is grievance, which is lots of people have grievances anyway, and they may never do anything. And the vast majority, that's the case. So a grievance alone is not really the indication that you're looking for, but it is almost look at it like a set of ingredients, I guess, in a recipe. It is present in most cases because it drives the decision to do this. When you move towards kind of the later stages as they build up towards actually doing an attack, then it does become more sequential because ultimately they have to prepare. And when they're very close, that's when you start seeing some of this leakage and some of the behaviours that might actually affect them psychologically. And what I'm trying to kind of get across is that they're not necessarily feeling no effects of their decision. Psychologically, this is a big, big significant step. So those are the behaviours you might see closer to the end. That's the way I would see it play out.

Rebecca Can I just quickly drill down a little bit more into the behaviours because we get asked about it so often. And I know it's a really hard one because I know they may differ from person to person, but it's obviously a lot of pressure, especially if we're talking about young people to manage. And when we're taking about them mentally preparing and they're changing erratic behaviours, we always say, withdrawn, angry, which is often quite similar to any angsty teen problem. But as these escalate, when you're talking about these sort of last phases, what could some of those behaviours actually look like to a parent?

Ian The thing is I totally see what you say, you know, teenagers or young people particularly will say and do things, you now, and in today's world they'll also find all sorts of things on the internet. They'll start consuming extremist material which on the surface of it looks like they have a very unhealthy interest and all that kind of thing. The difference really for me is that when you talk about a grievance, their attachment to that, whether it's a personal one or it's something where the group is involved and they are supportive of that group, the level of attachment to that grievance is extreme. So if you're a parent or you're friend and you start to talk to them about it, even not challenging them, just talking to them about it. I would expect a level of anger behind that, if that makes sense. And it would be very difficult to talk to them about it particularly if your views are different or you try and challenge their views. Those sorts of behaviours are more extreme than just generally exploring this kind of subject as a teenager might. When you talk about planning, the effect that planning something like this would have would be significant. They would be behaving strangely erratically. The sad part is the physical preparation for this, which is, you know, difficult things for people to come to terms with in some ways, is normally the same. In most of these cases, whether it's a child or not, because they have to decide how to do it, that's the difference.

Rebecca I was just going to add to that for Ian, so much of this is about being in tune with what normal behaviour looks like for your child, you know, as this sort of almost like benchmark.

Ian Yeah, and I'd say friends and family, close friends and family particularly, are going to know the baseline behaviours of these young people. And in some ways, you can get used to those behaviours. So they can be upset into this subject, if you like, for long periods of time. But what we're talking about here is a significant step.

Heather And I think you've talked really well about the lead-up to the attack and I think the question happens at post-attack of why and could we have stopped this and very much your motivation for the work that you're doing. Can you comment on why you feel these behaviours occur and how they link to escalate and where you see opportunities they present for interventions. I think we can agree that arguing ideology head-on is not going to work. They have a strong sense of grievance or a feeling towards a certain cause. What other sort of behaviours do you feel that they display that we feel that could be potentially opportunities for intervention or intervening?

Ian Yeah, so if we look at the behaviours I've described and how they would get there, if you take a grievance to begin with, and I do think it's important not to focus too much on ideology because what we're trying to do is to understand the sort of mechanisms of how this happens and then spot kind of signs, if you like. So with grievance, it could be a personal grievance. It could be individual and personal to them. And in terms of that feeling, that would be, for them would be the idea of being wronged, being personally wronged. Affronted, if you like. And so taking action like this, extreme action, is about getting your kind of power back, psychologically. It's about getting personal power back. There's a slight difference when you think about people that may be in support of some kind of group, whether it's a cause, like you say. And what we've found is that people often take on the cause themself internally. So if someone criticises a particular group, a religion or political group or anything like that, these people in this situation will feel that as a personal attack on them. It will feel personal. So this is what this is about. So the actual act of violence or the attack itself is a way to kind of get power back in that situation. It's a feeling of kind of helplessness and it's a feeling of wanting to do that. When you look at this other factor or phenomena that occurs, which is that often people want to be and particularly young people in this situation, they want to be remembered somehow. And often the leakage is mentioning comments about being remembered. They don't wanna be forgotten. And so it becomes actually about their identity, their ego, their identity. The idea of being special or important somehow. And that's actually a big driving factor in these situations. If you take those three things, the whole thing is born from feelings of low self-worth, social isolation. So what they're really doing here is they're coming from a place of low self-worth, of kind of isolation from society, and they're trying to make a statement with this. And that's psychologically why you see this kind of anger and this decision to take action play out. It's really important to emphasise, and I've mentioned it already, that the tipping point and the idea of... having extreme views, the level of attachment to these views is seriously extreme. It's significant. If you imagine what they're actually going to do, it's a huge decision. So that's why it's important to remember these are rare because very few people go this far. You know, that's really important to know.

Heather Yeah. And just a little bit on leakage. From what I'm hearing, the leakage seems to be that determined view, as you say, to memorialise themselves, to say their goodbyes, to prepare themselves. Do you ever see leakage as an opportunity, as sort of a last cry for help from these people?

Ian Yeah, I mean, I don't want to talk about these cases in a sense that they're all the same, because they're not. It's individual behaviour, individual people. So every situation is different. So yes, you get some people that carry out the attack, and you look back over it afterwards, and you might see some elements of leakage. And sometimes that's really clear, and sometimes it's very subtle, and it's almost like even family and friends didn't catch the significance of it. But yes, you also get cases where people say things very close to doing it and then change their mind or they ask for help at that moment because it's so significant. So it isn't always the fact that it always ends in this way. It's often an opportunity. But I think what you touch on there is, again, the significance of doing this. It's a huge, significant thing to do psychologically. So people will sometimes say because they want a cry for help, like you say. That's one way of putting it, yeah.

Rebecca Just going back to something you touched on earlier, when you're talking about driving factors, do you think the behaviours or indicators for an individual in a lead up would change if there were mental health factors at play? I mean, because you were talking about at the beginning motivators or grievances for an attack and it's not always put down to an ideology. And we have had attacks in Australia that have sort of ultimately been deemed, you know, the perpetrator was in a state of psychosis so, you know something similar. Do their behaviours in the lead-up, if you're aware, are they similar?

Ian You're right and there are cases where mental health plays a huge amount and I have looked at some of those too and it's quite interesting. I think we talked about baseline behaviours, so obviously if they're suffering mental health issues, particularly significant ones, their baseline behaviour may be quite erratic already, it might be quite difficult to establish but what's quite interesting about those attacks involving people suffering mental health is that there's an assumption that it just kind of happens spontaneously. And obviously, in some cases it does, but often there is preparation. The same preparation I described, so physical preparation. So there is some decision about where to do it, when to do, all that kind of thing, but also there's also some weight upon them as they decide to do. So it's not hugely different in some ways, when you get.

Rebecca Just knowing the baseline.

Ian Yeah, as you get to the last stages, which is people often pick up on, that there's still evidence in their preparation. It might be more limited than people without mental health issues, but it's still there.

Rebecca I know we've talked about this previously in discussions offline but I'd like to go over it again now for the listeners because I think it's really interesting and really important and this is the idea of acting fast. People don't know when to act and I know now we need to act even faster than you feel you actually need to and this due to a number of factors, you know, online behaviours and trends escalating the escalation of violent extremism. And also behaviours mimicking indicators for other social health issues or normal teen behaviours. So with these sort of blurred sort of lines. But it's really about recognising that you may only have one chance to intervene before it's too late. I mean, how do we encourage people to act fast and sort of remove this fear of them or their loved ones getting into trouble?

Ian When we talk about a leakage or someone suggesting that they might do something, so they might carry out an act or they might take matters into their own hands, it normally follows that if they do that, if they're going to actually go ahead, that it will happen very fast. And so it's really important to think about when reporting, if you see that kind of thing. If someone's talking about carrying out some act of violence, then... the quicker you report it, the better. But I accept that it's a really challenging thing to do. This is rare. It would come to be a surprise for anyone if they faced this with a loved one. It's a huge kind of barrier in some ways to be able to report. But I personally think if you saw this or you saw someone behaving like this and they actually said something like they were intending to do something. I think people's instincts are normally correct. If they feel a sense that they should tell someone, then I think they should. But it is really important to do it fast, because things can change very quickly. And obviously the outcome can be hugely disastrous for everyone involved, so the speed of reporting is a really significant thing. And I suppose the phrase I would use is, it's better safe than sorry.

Rebecca Yeah, and just trust those instincts.

Ian Yeah, and people like yourselves, Step Together and other agencies are there to support people. That's the big thing, isn't it?

Heather And I think that's a really key point of what we're here to talk to you about or talk with you about, Ian, because we saw with Southport incident, there was a lot of criticism on even the family, community members, agencies not speaking up, not raising that alarm bell at different times. And I Think, you know, what we always talk about and we're trying to overcome by education and awareness is those barriers to reporting, you understanding the social and emotional and sometimes cultural reasons why people stay silent. Including mistrust of government, it's a natural thing to protect your child. So all of those aspects that sort of really put those barriers up that we're trying to disarm. And we also know from other studies that peers are often aware of potential incidents that their friend might be willing to undertake and they don't want to get into trouble or they don't want their friend to get in to trouble. So I just think, can you tell us, you know, a bit more about the barriers to reporting from your own experience in trying to raise awareness? And trying to look into these matters and understand them.

Ian Reporting your own family or friends, you know, particularly you mentioned their peers as well. It's a really big thing to do, isn't it? And obviously no one wants to get anyone in trouble, you know particularly their own loved one. But also sometimes it can be about kind of the friend or family member actually telling them not to say anything. You know, so people sit with this knowledge and I suppose I come from it slightly, you know, differently in the sense that I've seen the aftermath of this, and so I've see sort of devastation, so personally I feel quite strongly about the fact that in the moment when you're thinking, shall I report, shall I not report, if your instinct says to you, this is very worrying, this I'm really concerned, then I think you should take a step forward. It might end up with a kind of simple conversation and some support, but it might actually save everyone huge amounts of heartache and devastation and community too, it has a huge effect. But I do believe people have good instincts generally and I think they know if they need to be worried about that person because they know them so well. One of the things that struck me before, obviously yourselves are here to support people but also sometimes it's just about talking to other people. So if it's you with your child or your friend and you're concerned, perhaps it's a good idea to talk to someone else that you trust, whether that's another friend or a trusted kind of friend of the family or something like that. There are cases around the world where that's happened. You can have those conversations and just start that about what your concern is. And it's a bit of a road to follow, but I would say, particularly nowadays, that there's a huge amount of support out there that perhaps wasn't there in the past. So the barriers are still very much there, but I'd say the support allows people to cross those much easier than ever before.

Rebecca Yeah, that's true. Ian, I know we've touched on Southport a few times because it's quite current at the moment, but what can past incidents around the world reveal about missed opportunities when it comes to early intervention and the lessons they provide to help prevent future attacks? You must have a number of case insights to draw from that we're perhaps not familiar with.

Ian Yeah, sure. So I'll take you through quickly through a few. They're all different in their own right, but hopefully you can see the patterns that I've kind of described. So I talked briefly about Southport, just because it's a recent case, and we recently had members of the suspect's family talk in the inquest as well. In very simple terms, there was a kind of known concern for that individual for some time. The week before the attack, the parents were aware that he had weapons in his room, a knife, a crossbow, and he booked a taxi under a false name to attend the last day of term at his old school. His father intervened with the taxi just outside, but it wasn't reported to authorities that particular incident. But obviously, in hindsight, this looks concerning. And about a week later, the attack happened, so three little girls were killed. It's a horrific attack. And he did the same thing, he booked the taxi under a false name. So you can kind of see that one, and it's a bit of a stark example where you can see the opportunities potentially to intervene. I talk about another attack which is a little bit older. So this was in Nice in the south of France where an individual on Bastille Day, which is in July, drove a large truck down the promenade in front of the sea there. I remember going to visit that, I was there at the time, so I went to see the kind of memorial straight afterwards, so it's significant to me. But when you look at that individual, so he was known for domestic violence, his marriage had just broken down, he was becoming more and more aggressive and violent. He had this personal crisis, he had this kind of significant event we talked about. Before that, he'd never really shown any interest in extremism of any kind and he actually started consuming kind of Islamist extremist material only a few weeks before the attack itself and then started researching online previous attacks and how to go about it and all that kind of stuff. It's a very good example of someone that his close friends and family noticed the psychological change in him as he moved towards this. Another one which was in June 2017 which was the Finsbury Park attack which happened in a place called Finsbury Park outside a mosque in London. Suspect in that he drove a van into a crowd of people, killed one, injured nine others. Again, this all happened very quickly. So he was known to be an alcoholic, he was troubled. His partner said, and I think his sister said, that he tried to commit suicide twice a few weeks before the attack. He asked to be sectioned, so asked to go into a mental health institution. And then he became kind of obsessed with this kind of extreme view against Muslims. And the night before the attacks he was in the pub, his local pub, where he was known, and he talked about taking matters into his own hands. So it's this example of leakage, of this idea that he's going to do something about it. Someone questioned him on kind of information about it, and he said something along the lines of, you'll find out tomorrow. So obviously this is all hindsight, you know, of course, but you can see there the indicators stand out, you know in those cases. As I said, they're all different in their own way, so. And then the last one, if there's such a thing as a more positive case or result, this one is this year. So it comes from Indianna in America. So it's a teenager who was planning to carry out a school shooting at Moorsville High School. And she is a female. Her friend actually contacted the FBI Sandy Hook helpline. And told them that she was planning an attack. She had access to an AR-15 rifle and had ordered a bullet proof vest online. And she'd had some fixation or interest in a previous school shooter in America from some years before. So that was actually averted, or the intervention came from that reporting, which is really significant, and that's very recently. So, and one of the interesting things I noticed about that case was afterwards. At her trial she apologised to some of the intended targets in the courtroom and she also made a statement that since she'd been kind of brought into custody that her mental health had improved significantly because she was surrounded by people that care about her so she'd ended up getting support off the back of it even you know even though it's kind of but I don't know everything about that case, but I'm aware that if... If she'd gone ahead, that would have been a devastating kind of result. So that is a really positive kind of case to think about.

Rebecca Yeah, well it's positive because people took the right steps, you know, someone called the helpline and you know. Yeah, but really people need to be paying more attention.

Heather I think all of those examples really highlight what you've been saying though, Ian, about listen to your gut, act on those thoughts, listen to what people are saying, you know, if there's something that you are uncomfortable with, talk to someone about it. I think, all of these examples are really, really good. And I think talking about, you know, some positivity coming out of that last example, what do you think you've learnt or when you look at the globe, they've learnt more about programs such as Step Together and we've had a lot of different countries really interested in how Step Together works from a non-law enforcement support helpline and how to help the community bridge that gap between concern and response. We're always willing to learn Ian, we're learning every day what sort of ideas can help this service or help our whole awareness raising and looking at prevention.

Ian Awareness I think it's about talking about it you know and what I'm talking about it's difficult to talk about you know it's upsetting it's extreme it's it's very difficult and imagine if if you had a family member or friend that that was involved in this you know these these are difficult things to talk about but I do think we should we should try and understand them better for me it's a social issue it's something that all of us should recognise it's very kind of difficult to sort of stare it in the if you like, because it is so upsetting, but I do think... organisations like Step Together provide a kind of discreet and trusted support to people that have these concerns and what you say Heather about trusting your gut, I really believe that's the right way to frame it because the person may be so secretive that no one would ever know what they're going to do, they've kept it so private and there are some cases like that but if there's any kind of indication that they're gonna do something and they're at that point. And someone feels in their gut, they should speak to someone. Then someone like Step Together is, and there are other agencies around the world, as you say, they're really important because they're people that know this subject, that they're not there to judge, they're there to support and help, not just the person of concern, but also the family and friends around them as well. A lot can be done. In terms of kind of learning and all that kind of thing, I think for me, this this issue is perhaps in the past been viewed as terrorism or it's been viewed as particular kind of emphasis on extremism. I do think that now what we see is a kind of concern that's a little bit wider than that in terms of the types of cases you see. For me, particularly young people, if a young person is involved in this, then that's a kind of tragedy anyway. Whatever they believe or whatever the grievance is, it shouldn't really matter. They need that support. And there are agencies like Step Together. So I think it's probably about understanding a little bit more about what I've described, which is the mechanisms that are happening, you know, the psychological mechanisms that lead people to this, so that we can kind of provide more sophisticated interventions. I think that's that's where my interest lies. How can we kind of learn to spot this earlier, but also how can we appropriately intervene? And I think, you know, particularly young people, we need to be careful with young people. You know, we need put our arms around them, really. I generally believe that we should support them.

Rebecca Yeah, it's interesting because when we talk about the call to action, we talk a lot about this being a whole of nation, you know, responsibility, collective responsibility, whole of society. But I think really individuals have to take responsibility for this call to action as well because so often I think if you see something there's everyone's busy, everyone's got a lot going on. There's a lot of this sort of, oh, well, that's odd, but someone else will take care of that. Someone else will, you know, make a call, but we don't know where else it's slipped through the cracks, you know. So I think there's, on an individual level, people need that encouragement to make the call as well.

Ian If you take the sort of scenario where maybe you're walking down the street and something is happening in front of you, you might step in, you may take that step. Sometimes these behaviours are a little bit more subtle than that, but I do think people should also report a concern. It's not right there in your face, but it's easy to go online and find the support services like Step Together and take that step. It's just being tuned in really to those things, not to kind of go any further than that, but just to be tuned into the possibility.

Heather I think you would agree in having seen families at that prevention phase and the nervousness that they have in reporting and getting that help for the young person versus those young people that have been arrested and the state of the family and the stress of the family at that stage as well, whether it be disrupted or they've actually hurt someone. And I know which one I would take is the prevention route because the damage and impact it has on communities and their families. Unmeasurable.

Ian I think it's a really difficult, for anyone, this would be most people's worst nightmare to be in this situation, you know, to have to do this, but you're right, the alternative could be significantly worse, so it's just recognising that, I think.

Rebecca We have covered a lot, Ian, just to recap for people listening on what their sort of key takeaways are. You know, we've covered awareness of the common behavioural indicators that may be seen by bystanders before, acts of mass violence or terrorism, a reframing of these crimes from random or unstoppable acts. They are in fact recognisable human processes that we should all try and understand and be aware of this base level of behaviour for each individual. Understanding that early reporting can save lives, and the recognition of how Step Together can provide that support in a safe environment as a means for reporting outside of law enforcement. Have I missed anything crucial there?

Ian No, I think you've summarised that perfectly.

Heather On that note, I really appreciate your time, Ian. This is a really tough subject. The subject is grim. The outcomes are grim and they're very distressing, but I think as we all collectively work towards trying to not have another outcome as best we can, and I agree with you, Ian, even if we could just stop one and keep learning from those diversions and successes, then we can grow in that knowledge. So I just really thank you so much for joining us today. Your knowledge and insights have been invaluable, that global perspective that you bring to Australia. And that frontline capability and understanding is just really invaluable. So thank you so much.

Rebecca Yeah, thank you, Ian.

Ian Thank you for having me.

Simon You have been listening to Start the Conversation, a podcast series produced by the New South Wales Countering Violent Extremism Engagement and Support Unit. For more information, please see the episode notes or visit www.steptogether.nsw.gov.au.